LOL what why would they do this

I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards.jpg except literally not metaphorically.

When I say full of shit, I am only referring to their confidence in developing a cure. My feeling playing the game was that they are delusional or desperate, or both. I don't doubt their sincerity, but you can be sincere in your beliefs and still be full of it.

They were confident because they had been running tests on people for years and finally had what was missing.

They were confident because they had been running tests on people for years and finally had what was missing.

And my feeling playing the game was that all they would gain would be to find out what else they are missing. Clearly that was not the authorial intention, but that was my reading.

I do think that is the best story, though. Their misguided confidence would have made them kill a child for no reason, and Joel would have killed them all even if a cure was a certainty.

Look, the Fireflies are elected officials in the Democratic party, Joel is Elon Musk, and Ellie is Social Media. Proceed as you will...

I haven't seen the show (nor will I), do I dare ask.

Why not? Don't let others makes your opinions for you. Granted, I think the game is stronger, but a lot people are incapable of understanding that while the outline might be the same, the characters are not and that's what make an adaptation interesting.

Oh cool we'll just assume that then.

Well it's a good thing we have a sequel where a character with survivor's guilt btw explained how we/Joel made that so much worse for her.

And my feeling playing the game was that all they would gain would be to find out what else they are missing. Clearly that was not the authorial intention, but that was my reading.

I do think that is the best story, though. Their misguided confidence would have made them kill a child for no reason, and Joel would have killed them all even if a cure was a certainty.

Yea again it becomes far less of a moral dilemma if we just assume that every character including a doctor who's been researching the infection for years can't make a cure and that it would genuinely all be in vein.

April 28th. Marlene was right. The girl's infection is like nothing I've ever seen. The cause of her immunity is uncertain. As we've seen in all past cases, the antigenic titers of the patient's Cordyceps remain high in both the serum and the cerebrospinal fluid. Blood cultures taken from the patient rapidly grow Cordyceps in fungal-media in the lab... however white blood cell lines, including percentages and absolute-counts, are completely normal. There is no elevation of pro-inflammatory cytokines, and an MRI of the brain shows no evidence of fungal-growth in the limbic regions, which would normally accompany the prodrome of aggression in infected patients. We must find a way to replicate this state under laboratory conditions. We're about to hit a milestone in human history equal to the discovery of penicillin. After years of wandering in circles, we're about to come home, make a difference, and bring the human race back into control of its own destiny. All of our sacrifices and the hundreds of men and women who've bled for this cause, or worse, will not be in vain.

All that serves is to be overly bleak for the sake of it and/or absolving Joel.

Why not? Don't let others makes your opinions for you.

💯

Last thing we need in TLOU discourse is "People told me the show is bad and all I know is text descriptions of events or out of context clips." being reiterated ad nauseum. Enough of that as is on social media.

Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.

This.

I get some that there was ambiguity but Joel's decision really loses it's weightiness if you assume the Fireflies definitely couldn't make a vaccine. I assumed it would have been possible (despite the unlikelihood) becaue it makes the ending hit harder. Neil kinda added nothing here, for me anyway,

I've always thought the dirty looking of surgery room hints the contrary

I always assumed it was the case and that the whole "that's not how vaccines work" camp was just looking for justification on how they felt about the ending.

It's a fantasy zombie world, the intent is obviously they can voodoo some cure up regardless of what the real life science is.

Finally!
Looks like my canon ending for the 3rd game with Punished Ellie looking for redemption by finally giving her life for the cure is on track. I call bullshit that Druckman is not thinking ahead while putting this new stuff out there.

The introduction to her character is a funeral scene telling us who her father was, with her saying "I'm going to kill Joel Miller."
It completely misses the point of what they did with the game - where you start out not knowing who this person is, or what her intentions are when you rescue her.

I know adaptations are going to be different and characters are going to be different, but that is shit writing.

I get some that there was ambiguity but Joel's decision really loses it's weightiness if you assume the Fireflies definitely couldn't make a vaccine. I assumed it would have been possible (despite the unlikelihood) becaue it makes the ending hit harder. Neil kinda added nothing here, for me anyway,

his remarks make it a textbook trolley problem. Of course it always could be that, but part of the reason the ending hangs around so well is because it's never quite settled. There's always the possibility that Joel can cling to that they couldn't have made it anyway.

Which doesn't mean he would have acted differently if he was sure they could make it. But it feels much more lifelike to not know explicitly, especially in that shattered environment. Not to mention the issue of distributing it and manufacturing it which all gets handwaved by this remark.

A rainbow reduced to one black and one white line. Great job, Neil. In fairness, that kind of sledgehammer morality fits right in with second game.

e: oh and he messed with the operating room too? Dude's like Lucas with these "improvements"

There was never anything particularly vague about it. People just wanted to give Joel extra justification because they're uncomfortable with characters they like making decisions that aren't 100% justified from all angles.

Like, the entire narrative impact of the scene is the decision he's making to put her over the rest of the world. Not "ah, clearly Joel is wise enough to understand that really the cure isn't actually possible!"

It was definitely vague. The game presented us no definitive evidence that a cure as complex as that would work. It was literally a vet leading the project and there'd barely been any testing done and just one sample to work with.

But the only thing that matters is Joel believed it could work and still made his choice. And even if he magically knew it would 100% work he'd still make the choice.

I never doubted they could develop a cure. But could they produce enough for it to matter? Lol no
At best they'd be able to inoculate their own rank and file.

Ellie would have saved a few privileged assholes, not humanity.

I know adaptations are going to be different and characters are going to be different, but that is shit writing.

I too judge adaptations based on text descriptions I read about instead of actually watching something to form an opinion.

There's always the possibility that Joel can cling to that they couldn't have made it anyway.

This is a thought that has never once crossed Joel's mind in the narrative we were given . In fact, he was such a believer that one of his ways of maintaining the lie to Ellie was lying to her that there wasn't a cure in the first place. Simply put, he knew what he did.

e: oh and he messed with the operating room too? Dude's like Lucas with these "improvements"

Bruh, TLOU2 came out five years ago. That's a change that was made during the introduction of TLOU2. "The room rendered on a PS3 was dirty" said nothing about the narrative and didn't matter in anyway, shape, or form. Saying "he messed with the operating room" is like saying the surgeon's model being changed into a character is a retcon. Or Seth being at the gate in TLOU1 Remake next to Tommy is a retcon. Save that kinda dumb logic for places like r/TLOU2. They love that shit.

The game came out over 12 years ago. The idea that a creator/author should just shut up and literally never comment on an ambiguous ending or complicated choice is so weird to me, especially when it's just his opinion at the end of the day.

It just screams as if he doesn't know what made his own narrative so good, which heavily implies it was kind of a fluke. The show is proving that, heavily.

It just screams as if he doesn't know what made his own narrative so good, which heavily implies it was kind of a fluke. The show is proving that, heavily.

What.
Some of you really need to calm down.

It just screams as if he doesn't know what made his own narrative so good, which heavily implies it was kind of a fluke. The show is proving that, heavily.

His narrative never presented the situation as ambiguous.

I see people still desperately need Joel to be a good person despite that not being the point of the story.

Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.

*gestures at the state of the world*
Hello?

But to be fair, it really doesn't matter if they could have made it or not, what matters is if Joel believes they could have made it or not.

Also, making it is a small fraction of the problem… as the most recent pandemic has shown us…

Yeah I always thought adding any ambiguity to that part of the scenario was just for people a way to avoid engaging with the actual dilemma of the situation. It's not meant to be a discussion about what's more or less likely to happen if we go through with this. It's about agency, honesty and sacrifice

Finding a cure doesn't mean the world is going back to normal.

Not after that amount of time.

It just screams as if he doesn't know what made his own narrative so good, which heavily implies it was kind of a fluke. The show is proving that, heavily.

I'm not going to touch... all that.

Again I ask, is he supposed to permanently stay silent on giving his thoughts? Even though it's been over a decade?

The irony to my mind since Covid is that yes it would have been invented by the Fireflies but in a Last of Us world (almost) nobody would take it anyway.

Also, the logistics and scale-up required would also be a significant hindrance. Sadly, it wouldn't have mattered and that's my depressing take on the matter...

hah, that's a good point. Seems wildly naive now

I too judge adaptations based on text descriptions I read about instead of actually watching something to form an opinion.

Yup! Not enough time or interest to watch everything. The nice clothes are also a bad sign.

This is a thought that has never once crossed Joel's mind in the narrative we were given . In fact, he was such a believer that one of his ways of maintaining the lie to Ellie was lying to her that there wasn't a cure in the first place. Simply put, he knew what he did.

More black and white nonsense. Yes, he knew he was lying. But people rationalize their lies. "Well, there might have been a possibility, but those idiots would never have made it work anyway. Ellie's too young to understand that, and she would cling to any shred of hope, so I'll just simplify it."
Or maybe he really did think they could have done it, as you imply. That's why the ending is so good. It isn't spelled out. It's subtle. It trusts the viewer/player to come up with an explanation.

2025 Neil clearly doesn't. You may agree with him but I think he's off balance here.

Bruh, TLOU2 came out five years ago. That's a change that was made during the introduction of TLOU2. "The room rendered on a PS3 was dirty" said nothing about the narrative and didn't matter in anyway, shape, or form. Saying "he messed with the operating room" is like saying the surgeon's model being changed into a character is a retcon. Or Seth being at the gate in TLOU1 Remake next to Tommy is a retcon. Save that kinda dumb logic for places like r/TLOU2. They love that shit.

Bruh, why do you think they rendered the room dirty on the PS3? Just a coincidence? Why was it so important that they change it? He was afraid people would "get it wrong"?
Go ahead and write me off as part of some shitty subreddit. You've got a fine, comfy bubble of interpretation and clearly no one is going to penetrate it.

I'm not going to touch... all that.

Again I ask, is he supposed to permanently stay silent on giving his thoughts? Even though it's been over a decade?

He can do what he likes, but it gives the impression he isn't confident in his own work. Show, don't tell. Why is he in the business of writing fiction if he has to come out and tell people "actually it's like this, you didn't get it"?

I always got the impression the game wanted you to skip through the bullshit and just assume the cure would work, but it's still mediocre writing at best:

- the lead doctor was a veterinarian.
- the fireflies were desperate, lacking man power, and funds.
- literally almost zero testing on Ellie before Just wanting to rip her brain out of her skull
- literally zero attention given to the special circumstances that could have led to ellie being immune

Yeah, it shows Druckman knows absolutely nothing about medicine if he believes a cure could definitely be made with what the game/show presented. Jerry Anderson graduated with just a bachelor of science in 2007 and then the outbreak occurred 6 years later. We don't know what he did in the interim, ie, did he go to med school, go to grad school, or just worked in science with a bachelor degree somewhere. There was no time to become a prominent expert in the field before the outbreak and everything went to hell after the outbreak so he definitely wouldn't have access to top research facilities and training. Maybe that is why when he got ahold of Ellie, his first inclination was to immediate operate and kill her.... Instead, they should have done a non-lethal brain biopsy and lots of other experiments before killing their only potential source for a cure, including waiting and seeing if she passed her immunity on to her child in the future. Give Ellie a chance to live some before potentially sacrificing her and allow allot more tests to be done over time.

I don't understand his wording. "Could have" and "would have" are very different things. "Could have" is always the impression I got. It's ambiguous but it's leaning towards it being still possible and that's all that mattered to the Fireflies. They were desperate and hopeful, but very possibly right even if it wasn't 100%. I never understood people who somehow believed that they were 100% wrong and their science was wrong and they were just stupid. That wouldn't serve the narrative whatsoever and is just a pathetic attempt to justify Joel's actions when you don't even need to make such a leap in logic to justify his actions.

Shouldn't have said anything, that diminishes the depth of the story so much.

Finding a cure doesn't mean the world is going back to normal.

Not after that amount of time.

Yep that was the point of the long journey after all. So you have the vaccine, cool, not gonna stop/reverse humans being raiders, cannibals and cultists. Heck just look at us during COVID, some people can't bothered to take a shot unless they are forced.

A pointless retcon. For me it's better to be unknown.

So much of S2 and been about removing the bleakness from the game which I don't like.

Yup! Not enough time or interest to watch everything. The nice clothes are also a bad sign.

Sometimes its ok to not have a take if you aren't informed about a thing. As an aside, yiure complaining about nice clothes, you mean like the nice clothes people in TLOU2 were wearing?

Probably should stop while you're ahead because you're just regurgitating instead of actually having anything meaningful to say about a show you haven't watched.

More black and white nonsense. Yes, he knew he was lying. But people rationalize their lies. "Well, there might have been a possibility, but those idiots would never have made it work anyway. Ellie's too young to understand that, and she would cling to any shred of hope, so I'll just simplify it."

This is again, TLOU2 as written by the subreddit instead of what TLOU is actually about.

Where's that Joel TLOU2 ending speech meme?

Or maybe he really did think they could have done it, as you imply.

As I imply? My brother in Christ him saying he believes in the cure is literally one of the first spoken lines of TLOU2. And if he hadn't believed in it he wouldn't have felt the need to lie to Ellie about there being more immune people. It's not left vague. He told a very specific lie. "You aren't special, there's no cure, they gave up."

Yeah, it shows Druckman knows absolutely nothing about medicine if he believes a cure could definitely be made with what the game/show presented. Jerry Anderson graduated with just a bachelor of science in 2007 and then the outbreak occurred 6 years later. We don't know what he did in the interim, ie, did he go to med school, go to grad school, or just worked in science with a bachelor degree somewhere.

"Well actually if you consider the logistics of how many years have passed since he graduated with a degree in medical education 🤓☝️"

Bruh. Focus on the story, it's not real life. The specific period of time between him graduating and the outbreak does not matter. As we know he spent years researching the infection in between the twenty year gap. That's we as a viewer need to know.

Bruh, why do you think they rendered the room dirty on the PS3? Just a coincidence?

Because of art direction choices that include reusing a bandit's face model vs. ok "now that we're readdressing this what does this actually look like?" They at no point ever said, and we had multiple director commentaries and years of interviews mind you, for the player to go "THE ROOM WAS DIRTY! THUS IT WOULDNT HAVE WORKED"

How is it a retcon?

I mean he's right that the more interesting philosophical question is "girl or the world". That's clearly what the game wants you to engage with. That doesn't completely go away if there are doubts about the Fireflies' capabilities as well though, which the game definitely left me with. There are other elements to it too, like whether Joel's love for Ellie is genuine or substituting her for his daughter.

Also people saying Ellie might have said no to the procedure are deluding themselves. She would've said yes. Is she still a child? Yes and the Fireflies know that. That's what makes their actions fucked up. They do it without even asking her because they don't know her like the player does. But also they would've done it even if she said no. They need that cure. That in itself is a moral dilemma. Save humanity by sacrificing a child.

Also people saying "but they wouldn't have been able to mass produce it" are also deluding themselves. It's a fucking video game. They probably would have. That's not the point. People keep trying to justify Joel in these weird ways when the only justification you need is that this is her daughter. Nothing else matters. I would've done the same shit.

Yea again it becomes far less of a moral dilemma if we just assume that every character including a doctor who's been researching the infection for years can't make a cure and that it would genuinely all be in vein.

I don't think the "moral dilemma" was the interesting part of story, because there wasn't one. Joel was always going to do what he did and the Fireflies were always going to do what they did. Typical idea of tragedy is when good comes in conflict with good, and I felt the game played well with that idea. There are two seeming goods (making a cure vs. saving your daughter), but both are undermined by the motives that actually power them (delusion vs. selfishness). Selfishness won, at least that round.

I mean it was always a trolley dilemma. People just came out with theories to not making Joel look that bad.

Never understood why people thought they couldn't.

That's the whole point of the ending. Joel being selfish, not willing to sacrifice someone he cares about for the greater good.

Yeah. The reaction turning into a debate was much more people attempting to cope with their technically sociopathic stance than audience imagination elevating a fiction piece.

The choice laid before Joel is very straightforward.

Finding a cure doesn't mean the world is going back to normal.

Not after that amount of time.

100% absolutely this. At that point the cure would be a nice thing to have, but it's not saving humanity. Not to mention all the conflict and complications that would ensue from announcing a cure to the different factions of what's left of the world.

Whether or not the cure was possible isn't the point. Joel didn't storm the building because the cure might be bullshit, he stormed in there because that's his daughter.

It shouldn't be part of discussing the ending except as like, a fun trivia thing or a what-if. So Neil's opinion is valid.

I don't think the "moral dilemma" was the interesting part of story, because there wasn't one. Joel was always going to do what he did and the Fireflies were always going to do what they did. Typical idea of tragedy is when good comes in conflict with good, and I felt the game played well with that idea. There are two seeming goods (making a cure vs. saving your daughter), but both are undermined by the motives that actually power them (delusion vs. selfishness). Selfishness won, at least that round.

Exactly, in a medium, where very famously the vast majority of games are power fantasies wherein the player is never asked to reflect on their actions and will kill a big bad guy at the end, TLOU has no final boss or binary blue/red ending. As a TPS, when it finally gives you an assault rifle it involves you mowing down people who fully believe they're doing the right thing and not in a "Thanos or Killimonger are charismatic enough to have some valid points" kind of way but in a "this could genuinely improve life, all it takes it one person who'd agree with going through with it" way that asks the player to reflect because "a cure wouldn't work anyway" was not what was going through their heads when they walked into that room. Especially when they saw Ellie lying there. Before, (from Ellie's perspective mind you), showing Joel blatantly lie about what went down. "The cure couldn't have worked" wouldn't be a lie Joel was telling Ellie if he genuinely believed that what he did had merit beyond his selfish desire.

This is basically the trolley problem and Joel chose to pull the lever and change the track.

It makes no narrative sense if a cure wouldn't have been able to be made and distributed. It's pretty obvious that the fireflies would be able to make a real cure. Everyone in the games believes it when it comes up over and over.

Does the game do a good enough job showing that the fireflies would be able to distribute a cure? It doesn't need to set that up because it is obviously the intent. People talking about the logistics of all of this, once they have the formula, the rest of this is easy to work out. And maybe they'll be dictators pr whatever, but they'll get a cure out because it is better than fear of turning.

I will say the most interesting thing to come out of this franchise is the meta in how people justify their beliefs and opinions based on this fictional world.

The Last of Us is just an all right story with some solid character flourishes throughout to me, but I'll give it full credit for being a concept that people have a strong emotional (and logical) reaction to.

I don't think that his authorial intent devalues other interpretations. I agree that the ambiguity behind the cure's viability adds complexity and nuance. But I also think that the cure being a viable McGuffin makes Ellie more interesting. The potential savior of this world is violent and reckless and makes bad selfish decisions just like everyone else. And having the series end by her sacrificing herself would be the trite predictable sentimental slurry that people laud the series for largely trying to avoid. I'll be interested to see what a TLOU3 might do.

The Fireflies would have probably weaponized the cure / used it as a political tool anyway.

Well maybe they could, maybe they would, we'll never know.

Anyway, them resorting to forcefully try to straightaway kill their only living person immune to the infection means fuck them.

I will say the most interesting thing to come out of this franchise is the meta in how people justify their beliefs and opinions based on this fictional world.

I also appreciate that people don't just feel one way or the other to the point that both sides will deny that those who feel differently have a lick of media literacy (boy howdy I know I do!) but that each camp maintains that their interpretation is the most interesting one. That adding uncertainty or removing that uncertainty to the idea that the fireflies could've achieved their goals, given the chance, BOTH make the story and any message or themes less appealing.

Doesn't change my opinion of the games one way or the other. First one great, second an all time masterpiece.

It was a great interview, any fan of the games/show/naughty dog will enjoy it, and sounds like they plan on doing another in the future if time permits.