I don't trust the Fireflies, Joel and Ellie fall through a river and he tries to give her CPR, and they knock him out and drag them there. They were very intimidating and untrustworthy in my view. If that wasn't what I was suppose to get from the story, too bad.

We have been vaccinating people for hundreds of years. Napolean had his army vaccinated against smallpox, thats how long it has been around. And the guy who invented it didn't have access to hig tech equipment.

That hospital looked to be fully staffed and fully geared, it is not like they were working with pickaxes. It doesn't surprise me that they could have done it.

Everything about the Fireflies seems sketchy as shit. That makes the player reasonably believe that they're just delusional and that they don't have the ability to find a cure. I'm not sure how anyone didn't laugh out loud when they were like "lul this person is vital for the cure. first thing on list? kill immune person kek." It makes them seem irrational, desperate and unreliable. Even the fact that they'd hire someone like Joel is sketchy.

In the very beginning of the game we see the Fireflies getting wiped out by the military, and Joel is only involved out of absolute necessity because of that. The game never frames the Fireflies as exceptionally competent, only that they're a competing faction that's more dug in than most, and still have aspirations to restore society (and happen to get very, very lucky with finding Ellie). They're sketchy as fuck from frame one, but that still doesn't mean a vaccine is impossible.

it doesn't matter at all.

even if you apply tons of real life logic into it, Joel didn't do it because he outsmarted the plan and the Fireflies.

it was not a matter of being suspicious or belief.

he did it because he's a selfish, horrible person and would let the world burn for Ellie.

now if you personally disagree whether said action paints him as a bad guy, if you'd made the same move regardless of its implications, that's fine, but that's not Joel Miller.

Joel Miller is what he is, you can reflect on the morality of his choice as a viewer, although we all know why he did it.

Why is he doing an interview with that piece of shit? So many options and he chooses him… like wtf Neil.

Easy to wave away if it's all magic, but we are meant to believe it's a real thing.

TLOU functions on the infection being magic though. Ellie can breath in a room full of spores and humans turn into hulking monsters.

That just seems like something you take for granted like Ellie's immunity. They both operate under the same narrative magic - there's no scientific explanation given, so there's no scientific bounds.

💯

In a world where gas/electronics, etc. still work twenty years past maintenance and a fungal infection that actually exists for no reason at all turns humans into super zombies compared to other species you are meant to suspend your disbelief.

Man just focus on making new stuff instead of clarifying theories.

- Neil's top priority right now is Intergalactic above all else.

It's right there in the OP.

Heh, I liked the ambiguity of not knowing if there was a 100% success guarantee out of sacrificing Ellie.

This.

The science behind it is very shaky at best, and if the Fireflies could in fact make a cure for a pandemic in those conditions, then there's no reason why they couldn't do it without outright killing Ellie, it doesn't make much sense.
And I agree, the uncertainty of not knowing if a cure was possible or not makes the dilemma much more interesting for the player.
As much as I love this series and Neil, I wish he would just stop talking about the game and try to have everything be black or white, mistery and ambiguity is part of the best fiction out there and writers/creators need to learn how to cope with that. The minute your art is out into the world its interpretation no longer belongs to just you

TLOU functions on the infection being magic though. Ellie can breath in a room full of spores and humans turn into hulking monsters.

💯

In a world where gas/electronics, etc. still work twenty years past maintenance and a fungal infection that actually exists for no reason at all turns humans into super zombies compared to other species you are meant to suspend your disbelief.

Ehhh you're not meant to entirely suspend your disbelief so anything is possible you're supposed to buy in to the fictional world that established it's own concepts early on.

how dare he besmirch videogame hero Joel Miller

Can't wait for that Intergalactic gameplay. Part 2 already has fantastic combat so if Intergalactic goes above and beyond that, it should be something really special.

this is a bit like in the show people wanted him to shrug his shoulders with an ambiguous answer when Ellie asked 'would it work'? But at that moment - at least for the show - nothing but a yes/no would have worked.

And in the game, at that moment - its not even a consideration. There aren't a little devil on one shoulder going 'kill them all' and an angel on the other going 'but she could cure so many people think of the greater good'. They're going to kill his baby girl and thats the end of the though process - he will not let that happen.

anything else is an afterthought - maybe it sits in the minds of the viewer/player which is fine as an extra layer

Even in the game it's established that Joel believes it would've worked. He tells Tommy, "Maybe I was startin' to buy into this whole...cure business.". And then he tells him that they arrived at the hospital and then says, "And because of her...They were actually going to make a cure.". I don't think that aspect of the story was ever intended to be ambiguous. It was always meant to be that the cure would've worked, but Joel didn't give a shit. Ellie meant more to him than anyone else.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. Marlene told Joel they were going to make a cure. He didn't say "I don't believe you". He didn't say "are you sure that will work?". He didn't care about the cure, he cared about Ellie dying. He didn't question whether the cure would work, because he didn't care.

People trying to decide whether he chose right or wrong, based on whether the cure would work or not, are completely missing the point.

I mean yeah so? Honestly personally i don't think it even really matters at that point world was already in a absolute shit state with literal cannibal and murderers everywhere and the infected can not be cured so you still have millions of monsters running around everywhere ripping ppl apart.

There was nothing worth saving even if they did manage to make a cure and actually distribute it which is definitely the bigger problem here considering the state the Fireflys where in and the logistics involved.

This right here, and I don't see many people have the same thoughts which really surprises me. Both games are more about humanity than the virus. A cure isn't doing anything to the world.

Some things are better left unsaid Neil.

That'll save several pages of threads in TLoU threads, lol.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. Marlene told Joel they were going to make a cure. He didn't say "I don't believe you". He didn't say "are you sure that will work?". He didn't care about the cure, he cared about Ellie dying. He didn't question whether the cure would work, because he didn't care.

People trying to decide whether he chose right or wrong, based on whether the cure would work or not, are completely missing the point.

This was kinda always my take - does this actually change ANYTHING?

I understand what he's saying but I think the intent is closer to "Joel doesn't care whether or not a cure was viable, he's going to save Ellie." Even if the Fireflies had shown him a detailed PowerPoint presentation of exactly how the cure would be manufactured and distributed, he would still be saving Ellie and killing all of them.

The more interesting question the ending posits, for me, and it's one that sometimes lost in these discussions, is less about the trolley problem setup and instead that both Joel and Marlene deny Ellie's agency for their own wants. Joel refuses to accept that she might want to sacrifice herself, Marlene refuses to give her the choice.

This was kinda always my take - does this actually change ANYTHING?

Nope, it doesn't. Remember, Joel got jaded by "humanity" well before the cordyceps had fully ran rampant. He checked out of giving a fuck the second that perfectly healthy, non-infected soldier shot Sarah.

So in his mind, he wasn't going to let humanity kill his second daughter even if it does end up dooming everyone. Because again, it wasn't the cordyceps that made him that way, it was people.

It is even more tragic now

Will never understand why people split hairs over this or claim the supposed "ambiguity" of the vaccine viability adds anything to the story. In BOTH games, every character that matters is confident in the possibility of the vaccine, and that is what is important. People so DESPERATELY want to be morally vindicated that siding with Joel is not just righteous, but also rational even pursuit of a vaccine, even though the most passing glance interpretation of the ending is OBVIOUSLY written to not satisfy that perspective. It's a trolley problem, and the trolley problem is what makes the ending, and Joel's decision, interesting. If it's not actually a trolley problem, the ending and the story lose a lot of their depth and impact.

Completely agree.

Joel might have pressed a 100% cure button that kills his daughter but even a 1% chance it was a hail mary by sketchy people guaranteed the slaughter.

I think the point here is Joel knowingly chose to destroy that 100% cure button and hide the pieces despite the confidence it was a sure thing. Joel had no doubt it would've worked and did not care. And he'd do it again, daggummit. The intent was that no one was hiding behind the spectre of uncertainty to justify their actions. And that we make of that what we will.

In the very beginning of the game we see the Fireflies getting wiped out by the military, and Joel is only involved out of absolute necessity because of that. The game never frames the Fireflies as exceptionally competent, only that they're a competing faction that's more dug in than most, and still have aspirations to restore society (and happen to get very, very lucky with finding Ellie). They're sketchy as fuck from frame one, but that still doesn't mean a vaccine is impossible.

Well, I wouldn't have said impossible. Just that I don't know if I'd hand over the one immune person I know of to them. Regardless, the whole thing is about Joel and the fact that he wouldn't have cared either way. It feels like taking the mystery out of whether or not they'd succeed is just meaninglessly making the ending worse.

Ellie would have let them try.

Yeah, death of the author here for me. It's just so much more fascinating never knowing whether a cure was viable or not. His assertion that there was a viable cure, and that he personally believes Joel did the right thing, I don't know, it just doesn't square with me.

Am I imagining it or weren't there some files or X-rays or whatever at the University that strongly suggested the Fireflies had tried something similar before?

Ellie would have let them try.

She would've, but it's also not a decision she was really equipped to make at the time. She was just a kid who'd been suffering from severe survivor's guilt.

Doesn't matter in the slightest. Marlene told Joel they were going to make a cure. He didn't say "I don't believe you". He didn't say "are you sure that will work?". He didn't care about the cure, he cared about Ellie dying. He didn't question whether the cure would work, because he didn't care.

People trying to decide whether he chose right or wrong, based on whether the cure would work or not, are completely missing the point.

100% this. I've never understood the point in the question. It's about what the characters believe, not about what's actually true.

This was kinda always my take - does this actually change ANYTHING?

For some people, they always tried to use real life logistics to absolve Joel of any wrong doing. Even though in multiple occasions he admits it. Hell, one of the lies the lies he tells in TLOU2 was "I saw the tests were useless so I got us out of there. There was no cure." That's a blatant a lie as it gets because he believed the exact opposite and Ellie knows it.

Am I imagining it or weren't there some files or X-rays or whatever at the University that strongly suggested the Fireflies had tried something similar before?

Jerry spent years running tests on people but in that specific recording it's never stated that they had another immune person. Quite the opposite, the recorder goes on to explain why Ellie in particular is different than past subjects and how they now have the means to create a cure.

For some people, they always tried to use real life logistics to absolve Joel of any wrong doing. Even though in multiple occasions he admits it. Hell, one of the lies the lies he tells in TLOU2 was "I saw the tests were useless so I got us out of there. There was no cure." That's a blatant a lie as it gets because he believed the exact opposite and Ellie knows it.

The logistics are just a strong excuse people use, I think Joel would've still done it if it was full black and white - very few things in real life is that black and white, I always pretty much viewed that as an excuse to justify a shit action.

Except for Bill's story, nearly everything they have extended/elaborated upon with the show has made the story worse.
They have removed so much of the subtlety that made it work in the games. I couldn't believe what they did with Abby's character in the first episode of season 2 (and dropped it right there).

It's just like when someone goes back and writes a prequel or extended universe novel that nobody asked for, going into the fine details of events that were best left to the reader's interpretation. Some things are best left unsaid.

People trying to decide whether he chose right or wrong, based on whether the cure would work or not, are completely missing the point.

Absolutely.

Except for Bill's story, nearly everything they have extended/elaborated upon with the show has made the story worse.
They have removed so much of the subtlety that made it work in the games. I couldn't believe what they did with Abby's character in the first episode of season 2 (and dropped it right there).

I haven't seen the show (nor will I), do I dare ask.

Doesn't change the fact a child can't consent to having their life taken in service of others.

Jerry spent years running tests on people but in that specific recording it's never stated that they had another immune person. Quite the opposite, the recorder goes on to explain why Ellie in particular is different than past subjects and how they now have the means to create a cure.

Been so long that I don't remember any details, but I do remember that my impression was that these people are full of shit. That may not have been the intention, but I feel it is a reasonable conclusion based on what is presented.

My favorite part about stories is when the author comes in and tells me what they really meant instead of discussing it.

This isn't necessarily a slight against Niel, but really just online discourse about stories with any room for reader interpretation needing to be sacrificed on the altar of canon or whatever.

I do think the internet discourse can often get caught up in the details and technicalities instead of just discussing the intent and themes of the story.

I remember when nerds pointing out the number of plot holes in Spider-Man was something that was joked about in Jay Leno's Tonight Show monologues.

He would've murdered a bunch of people who were going to kill a kid. Few outside of their family or friends are going to feel empathy for people who were doing that.

Isn't that what Part 2 is all about? That those people who were trying to kill a kid had good reasons for it, had friends and families, genuinely tried to help the humanity, and they didn't deserved to be gunned down just because they got in a way of Joel's happy ending?

People keep claiming the ambiguity is interesting here, but i've yet to see anyone explain why it's interesting for this specific story about a man who'd choose his child over the world. And also what that means for his child as she grows up.

For the same reason most ambiguous endings are fun: they make you think about what happened and the consequences long after the credits roll. The idea that Fireflies were unambiguously in the right makes the story far less interesting than having them fly by the seat of their pants. Not to mention, it flies in the face of the entire etos of both games, which are all about a morally dubious characters doing a morally dubious things for the relatable reasons.

My favorite part about stories is when the author comes in and tells me what they really meant 12 years later instead of discussing it.

Fixed

Been so long that I don't remember any details, but I do remember that my impression was that these people are full of shit. That may not have been the intention, but I feel it is a reasonable conclusion based on what is presented.

Marlene wasn't full of shit, she's very clearly portrayed as super sincere and even hurt herself because she's known Ellie for years. And then you find an audio recording where she outright states that she's the reason Joel is alive in the first place.

Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times... Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon.

I haven't seen the show (nor will I), do I dare ask.

If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers.

Even if they were to make a cure, this is still what he did since Ellie was never asked if she was happy for them to kill her.

Joel is saving a child from child murderers.

I mean that is still the ending regardless of if they had a chance of pulling it off

Still don't buy that they were capable of it at all.

Edit god dammit

Marlene wasn't full of shit, she's very clearly portrayed as super sincere and even hurt herself because she's known Ellie for years. And then you find an audio recording where she outright states that she's the reason Joel is alive in the first place.

When I say full of shit, I am only referring to their confidence in developing a cure. My feeling playing the game was that they are delusional or desperate, or both. I don't doubt their sincerity, but you can be sincere in your beliefs and still be full of it.

guy really ought to just let the work speak for itself. Yet another example of why making celebrities of these people and hanging on their words is dumb.

If they can make a cure: The ending is a moral dilemma, where Joel is willing to sacrifice humanity to save the person he loves.

If they can't make a cure: Joel is saving a child from child murderers.

cure or no cure, it's still a child sacrifice. there is no moral dilemma about stopping a child from being sacrificed. sacrificing children is wrong.

it's only an actual moral dilemma if you're extremely utilitarian but still love your family, i guess.

The introduction to her character is a funeral scene telling us who her father was, with her saying "I'm going to kill Joel Miller."
It completely misses the point of what they did with the game - where you start out not knowing who this person is, or what her intentions are when you rescue her.

LOL what why would they do this

Isn't that what Part 2 is all about? That those people who were trying to kill a kid had good reasons for it, had friends and families, genuinely tried to help the humanity, and they didn't deserved to be gunned down just because they got in a way of Joel's happy ending?

But we're talking about the scenario that people are trying to push here where the cure wasn't viable because of some supposed ambiguity that I never really saw to begin with. In that scenario they would've been monsters. Killing a child for a chance. So, it completely changes the story. Joel is undeniably in the right in that scenario.

For the same reason most ambiguous endings are fun: they make you think about what happened and the consequences long after the credits roll. The idea that Fireflies were unambiguously in the right makes the story far less interesting than having them fly by the seat of their pants. Not to mention, it flies in the face of the entire etos of both games, which are all about a morally dubious characters doing a morally dubious things for the relatable reasons.

The Fireflies are still morally dubious. They were willing to kill a child without even talking to her about what they were going to do. They're also a terrorist group. Just because they were right about the cure doesn't erase that. It also calls into question how they would've handled the vaccine. They suddenly become the most powerful group in the US because they hold the cure for humanity. So, you'd have a terrorist organization that's wielding that power.

I just don't see how ambiguity works to improve the story being told in this series in any way. The possibility of it not working makes Joel's decision less compelling. It also makes things "easier" for Ellie because even though she'd still feel guilt over her immunity, she'd know that there was never anything that could be done about it. Instead she has to live with the knowledge that it could've worked but the person she loved most took that away from her.