On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Weijia Jiang: 

Click here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."   

WEIJIA JIANG: I'm Weijia Jiang in Washington.

And this week on Face the Nation, the latest on the Trump administration's showdown with the courts over deportations and a closer look at the president's agenda on education, environmental policy and more.

In a rare weekend ruling, Supreme Court justices blocked the Trump administration's plans to deport a group of Venezuelans held at a detention facility in Texas. It's the latest legal challenge to Trump's embrace of the same 18th century law he used last month to expel a group of migrants. Trump also deported Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland resident who officials admit was expelled by mistake.

Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen is just back from visiting Garcia in El Salvador. We will ask him what's next.

Then: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says Russia is violating its own Easter truce. And, as President Trump signals the U.S. may walk away from its push for peace negotiations, we will check in with Pennsylvania Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick, who's just back from a trip to Ukraine's front line.

Plus, we will talk with Massachusetts Governor Maura Healey about her state's fight with Washington over higher education.

Chicago Federal Reserve President Austan Goolsbee will join us with an update on the economy.

Finally, ahead of Earth Day, we will hear from the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Lee Zeldin.

It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.

Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is off.

We want to get right to the latest on the Trump administration's standoff with the courts over deportation flights.

CBS News immigration reporter Camilo Montoya-Galvez is here to explain.

Good morning, Camilo.

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Good morning.

WEIJIA JIANG: So your reporting found that there is a group of men down in Texas, Venezuelan men, who have already been informed that they could soon be deported under the Alien Enemies Act.

But early Saturday morning, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked those deportations. So walk us through the ruling and how the White House is responding.

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: So, earlier in the week, the ACLU and other advocates sounded the alarm and said that a group of Venezuelan men detained at that Texas detention facility were facing imminent deportation under the Alien Enemies Act, that 18th century wartime statue that is at the center of this legal battle between the Trump administration and advocates across the country.

And they said the men had been given notices that they were being accused of being part of this notorious gang known as Tren de Aragua. But we know now that the Supreme Court has blocked those deportations of this specific group of men held in Texas for the time being. But this will not be the final say in this case.

And the Justice Department has already said that it should allow – it should be allowed, rather, to carry out these deportations and that the Supreme Court's order was unprecedented and premature.

WEIJIA JIANG: Well, of course, the administration has already deported…

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Yes.

WEIJIA JIANG: … 261 Venezuelan men last month to El Salvador.

And in an ongoing court case related to that, this week, a federal judge said there is probable cause to find the government in criminal contempt for violating his order at the time to immediately pause those deportations. An appellate court has issued a stay on that decision for now. But what happens next?

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Well, Judge Boasberg here in the federal district court in D.C. did find that the administration actively and deliberately defied his order to turn around the planes that were in the skies, in the air when he issued his directive on March 15 to turn around deportation flights carrying people processed under the Alien Enemies Act.

And now we know that this appellate court has stayed his order, but only on administrative grounds, Weijia. And so that means that order could very well take effect later this week or in the near future. If that does happen, the administration will face two options.

It can try to rectify its alleged violation of that court order by retaking custody of the detainees sent to that mega-prison in El Salvador, or it could very well find itself – finding itself in a criminal contempt and a criminal prosecution referral by Judge Boasberg.

The open question is, what happens if the judge issues that criminal referral? Because, of course, that would be handled by the Justice Department. And I think it's unlikely that the Trump administration will prosecute its own officials for this alleged violation of a court ruling.

WEIJIA JIANG: Yes, Attorney General Pam Bondi has explicitly said…

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Yes.

WEIJIA JIANG: … that she will not be bringing those men back.

Kilmar Abrego Garcia was one of the men deported. And even though the administration says it was by mistake, they also say they will not return him to the U.S. And now they are pointing to new explanations for why. Tell us about that.

CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Well, the Trump administration is citing two newly surfaced cases to make the argument that Kilmar Abrego Garcia is not a sympathetic figure.

They are citing a 2021 request from his wife for a protective order against him alleging domestic abuse in their household. The wife told us that they were able to resolve that issue as a family together. And they're also citing a 2022 traffic stop in which a Tennessee trooper alleged that the incident in which Mr. Abrego Garcia was involved in was suspicious and could be implicated in human trafficking because there were another eight men and women in that car without any luggage.

I should underscore that none of these cases led to a criminal charge or prosecution, but the administration is still arguing that this undermines Mr. Abrego Garcia's case in the court of public opinion, even though that, in the court of law and in legal courts, they have conceded that they made a legal mistake here by sending him to a country where a judge has said he could not be deported to.

WEIJIA JIANG: A very important distinction.

Thank you so much, Camilo.

And we turn now to Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us this morning.

You're just back from El Salvador, and I want to pick up where we left off with Camilo, because the White House is using these new details to build its case that Abrego Garcia should stay where he is and not come back to the U.S.

Your response?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-Maryland): Well, Weijia, it's good to be with you.

And these – his case is, of course, separate than the case of the Venezuelans that you were talking about earlier.

WEIJIA JIANG: Yes.

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: And, in Abrego Garcia's case, the Trump administration admitted in federal court that he'd been wrongfully abducted and sent to a prison in El Salvador.

But rather than fixing the problem, as the Supreme Court has said, in terms of his need to be – use their efforts to – to facilitate his release, they reprimanded the lawyer who made that case. So, they need to bring him home.

Now, with respect to these other facts, I say, put up or shut up in court. As you just heard in your last conversation, they have not done that. And I do want to just read one sentence from the federal district court, who said – and I quote – "that the administration has presented no evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or to any other terrorist activity" – unquote.

Go to court, stop tweeting and put up or shut up in front of the judges.

WEIJIA JIANG: You bring that up because that is why the administration says that they have deported Abrego Garcia.

And you have previously said that, when you talked to him, he was not informed about why he was deported or detained. Did you tell him why the administration says they did what they did?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I did not go over all the facts of his case, other than to say that the courts of the United States had determined that he had been wrongfully detained and deported.

He has no news of his case. He did tell me that, when he was taken to the Baltimore detention facility, he wanted to make one phone call to let people know exactly what was happening in terms of his detention there, and he was not able to make it. He did not know at that time that they were going to send him back to El Salvador, where, as you say, a federal immigration judge had – had prohibited, prohibited the administration from sending him.

WEIJIA JIANG: You also said that you did not directly ask Abrego Garcia whether he is a member of MS-13, which, of course, the Trump administration has designated as a terrorist group.

I wonder why, because that is all we are hearing from the White House. And, you know, he hasn't been able to speak for himself. So did you ask him?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Well, I know his answer. His answer, he has made repeatedly, including in court, which is that he is not.

I was not there to litigate all the details of his case. I was there to make sure that he was still alive and check on his health. That's what I promised his wife and family that I would try to do, and that is what I did.

WEIJIA JIANG: Since he was deported, there have been a lot of questions about his welfare and where exactly he is. And you broke the news that he is no longer at CECOT, the maximum security prison, but, rather, transferred.

Do you know why he was transferred and how long he'll stay at this less restrictive prison?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: I don't know why he was transferred.

I mean, CECOT was a traumatizing experience, as was being sort of abducted from the United States illegally without knowing why. He did say that he felt threatened by other prisoners at CECOT, not those who were in his immediate cell, but taunts from others.

So he is now at a place in Santa Ana, and I believe I was the first to learn that he had been transferred.

WEIJIA JIANG: I want to show our viewers some pictures that the president of El Salvador, Bukele, showing you and Abrego Garcia sitting around what appears to be margaritas.

You have blamed him for trying to deceive people with props. After he posted those images, he also posted – quote – "I love chess."

Do you have any concerns that the Salvadoran government used you as a pawn to make their point that Abrego Garcia is doing well and that he should stay where he is?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: No, in fact, the El Salvadoran government tried really hard not to let me see him. But I think they realized that that was not a good look, at the end of the day.

I had press conferences in El Salvador with local press and made the point that El Salvador was violating international law by not allowing anyone to reach him, not his wife, not his lawyers, nobody. They realized that was a bad look.

So I'm glad I met him. That was the purpose of my visit. They go to great lengths to deceive people, and that's what you saw, because they got – these government guys essentially told the waiters to bring these drinks that appear to look like margaritas to the table. No one touched them. I can go into the details about how their whole scheme was set up.

But the reality is, if you look at the photos when I first sat down, and the ones at the end, you can see that that was all staged. They're trying to create the impression that, you know, this – this is a guy in paradise, when, in fact, he's been in one of the most notorious prisons in the world.

WEIJIA JIANG: Well, the Trump administration has made abundantly clear that they have no intention of bringing him back to the United States.

And, in fact, the – the official White House account posted a picture that says exactly that, based on their own edits. Is it fair to say that Abrego Garcia will remain in El Salvador as long as Trump is president or unless Trump changes his mind?

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: No, because the Supreme Court of the United States and the other courts have said that the administration has to facilitate his return.

As of right now, they are in defiance of that court order. They're not doing anything. I want to be really clear. This is not a case about just one man whose constitutional rights are being ignored and disrespected, because, when you trample on the constitutional rights of one man, as the courts have all said is happening in this case, you threaten the constitutional rights of every American.

I would think that conservatives and libertarians would recoil at the idea that someone has lost his liberty without due process. That's my focus. My focus is not on one man. It's on making sure one man's rights are secured, so that we can uphold the rule of law.

WEIJIA JIANG: Senator Van Hollen, thank you. We hope to see you back soon. And Happy Easter.

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN: Thank you. Thank you. You too.

WEIJIA JIANG: Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: Russia and Ukraine exchanged hundreds of prisoners of war yesterday, the largest such swap since Russia launched its invasion more than three years ago.

But, despite hopes that a brief Easter truce might open the door to lasting peace, both Kyiv and Moscow are accusing each other of breaking the cease- fire.

Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick is just back from a trip to Ukraine's front line, and he joins us this morning from Langhorne, Pennsylvania.

Congressman, thank you for being here.

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK (R-Pennsylvania): Good morning, Weijia. Happy Easter.

WEIJIA JIANG: Happy Easter to you too.

So, just hours ago, you landed from that visit to Ukraine, and you had a chance to sit down with President Zelenskyy. Did you talk about the status of the peace agreement that the U.S. is trying to broker?

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: We sure did.

We – I spent a lot of time with him one-on-one. President Zelenskyy and I have spoken many times. I consider him a friend now and a great leader. And, yes, we talked at length about a whole host of topics. We didn't leave really anything out of the discussion.

And, obviously, that day, he was signing a memorandum of understanding on a minerals agreement, which they've gone back and forth on. You know, he and I had talks about the security guarantees. That's obviously a big concern of his. He is rightfully concerned.

The history is, with the Budapest Memorandum. When Ukraine was the third largest possessor of nuclear weapons, they gave them up voluntarily based on a memorandum, also a memorandum, in 1994 that said that they would get security guarantees for – in exchange for giving up the nuclear arsenal.

And, as it turns out, that – that promise was not kept by none other than Russia, right? Go figure. So he has justifiable concerns. But we talked through that because we do want this economic partnership to be the precursor to security guarantees.

WEIJIA JIANG: And just a quick follow on that, Congressman. The president indicated in the Oval Office on Thursday that that deal would be signed next week. Do you know if that's true?

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: Well, that remains to be seen, and it depends on what's in the deal.

So what President Zelenskyy made clear to me, as he has many times, is, you know, certain agreements can be signed by his finance minister and Secretary Bessent, but if it's worded differently, if there are specific numbers, for example, that's something that needs to go through his parliament and potentially our Congress, if it's fashioned in terms of a treaty.

So a lot of it's going to depend on the details and what is actually in it in terms of what's required for approval.

WEIJIA JIANG: OK, so we'll wait – wait to see that.

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: Yes.

WEIJIA JIANG: You just talked about all the frustration that Zelenskyy continues to express. And he did so with regard to this Easter cease-fire.

If these two countries can't even get through a holiday cease-fire, how realistic is a 30-day-pause, not to mention the end of a war, any time soon?

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: That is entirely up to Vladimir Putin.

The man has never kept his word ever in any context, as far as I'm aware. So we have to know what we're dealing with. Our government, I hope, knows who they're dealing with, with Vladimir Putin. He's not a per – he's not a man of his word. He's not interested in peace. I hope he gets there.

He is not all that different, Weijia, from the schoolyard bully. If you look at Russia, right, obviously, it's huge geographically, but a population of about 150 million people, about half the size of the United States, one-fifth the size of Europe, a total GDP of $2 trillion. That's the GDP of the state of Texas.

So they are large, but they're weak, and they're proving that weakness by the fact that they can't even successfully prosecute a war against a much weaker neighbor. So, we got to stop, you know, being fearful or bowing down to Russia. We need to stand up to Russia. We need to defend Ukraine, support Ukraine.

And if it's done the right way, this will end positively. It's all about peace through strength.

(CROSSTALK)

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: There's peace through strength and there's war through weakness. There's no magical third option.

WEIJIA JIANG: Well, President Trump and Secretary of State Rubio have said that the U.S. has to figure out if a deal is doable in a matter of days or just move on.

And, on Friday, I asked President Trump about this fresh sense of urgency. Here's what he said.

(Begin VT)

WEIJIA JIANG: What do you need to see from both sides in order to keep negotiations going? What do you want to see from Russia and Ukraine?

DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): I have to see – my whole life has been one big negotiation, and I know when people are playing us, and I know when they're not. And I have to see an enthusiasm to want to end it.

(End VT)

WEIJIA JIANG: How much of this demand, Congressman, for enthusiasm do you think is a direct message to Russia? And how much time do these two sides have to get something done?

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: Well, I hope it's directed to Russia. I think it is directed to Russia.

I can tell you, President Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian people, I know them well, Weijia. I have lived there as an FBI agent. I was assigned there as a – working Russian counterintelligence. They want peace. They're a peaceful nation. They are a democratically elected – elected officials, including President Zelenskyy. They want peace.

They did not ask for this invasion. They did not provoke this invasion. They were invaded by Vladimir Putin, who had been telegraphing this punch for years. We all knew what he was intending to do, and now he's doing it. He views the fall of the Soviet Union as the greatest geopolitical disaster of our lifetimes, and he's trying to reconstitute it. Step one is Ukraine.

We cannot allow him to do that. And what we also can't allow is for the precedent being set here that dictators are going to be rewarded for violating the territorial borders and territorial sovereignty of their neighbors. We cannot reward that.

So, you know, I – I want to say this too. I think Secretary Rubio is doing a great job. He's a smart man. He understands Putin. He understands the dynamic of the – of the Russia-Ukraine conflict and the history there. And I have full faith in his ability to barter a just and fair agreement.

But it's important to remember – and this applies to all agreements where we facilitate as a nation – that it's ultimately up to the nations to accept and abide by those conditions. President Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian people desperately want peace. They've always wanted peace. They were a peaceful nation before Russia wrongfully invaded them, and they want to get it back. But it's got to be a just and lasting peace.

WEIJIA JIANG: And, very quickly, Congressman, because we have to let you go soon, but, if these talks fail, the president was ambiguous about whether the administration would continue to support Ukraine. And Speaker Johnson has earlier said that there was no appetite for additional aid.

So will there be a new bill on the House floor, quickly?

REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN FITZPATRICK: Yes, I don't want to get ahead of the administration or the speaker.

But I will just leave it at this. I will do everything in my power to make sure that Ukraine wins this fight and that Russia loses, and that we have a peaceful settlement. If you look at every time the Ukraine support has been put on the House floor, overwhelming support.

WEIJIA JIANG: Thank you, Congressman Fitzpatrick. Really appreciate your time.

And we will be back in a minute on Face the Nation. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

(Begin VT)

MARK STRASSMANN (voice-over): North of Atlanta, Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene's town hall had flashes of WrestleMania, hostility, jeering, scuffling with security, and a ringmaster, Georgia's firebrand congresswoman.

REPRESENTATIVE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-Georgia): This is a town hall. This is not a political rally. This is not a protest.

MARK STRASSMANN: Three hecklers were arrested. Police Tasered two of them, including this man.

These town halls have become so raucous, Greene is one of the few Republicans to hold one during this congressional recess. Their national party has suggested members hold virtual town halls instead.

SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-Iowa): Already, in three months, we've got more e-mails than all of last year.

WOMAN #1: What does that tell you?

MARK STRASSMANN: For an hour in Iowa, a room full of Senator Charles Grassley's constituents ganged up on the 91-year-old Republican.

MAN #1: Do your job, Senator.

MAN #2: Yes!

WOMAN #2: Yes!

MAN #3: Yes!

MAN #4: Make Trump obey the Supreme Court.

MARK STRASSMANN: They're furious, and they want answers on issues from Social Security to deportations.

MAN #5: Are you going to bring that guy back (EXPLETIVE DELETED) from El Salvador?

MAN #6: Yes.

WOMAN #3: Yes.

WOMAN #4: Yes!

MAN #7: Yes!

MAN #8: Why not?

SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: Well, because that's not a – that's not a power of Congress.

MARK STRASSMANN: In these moments, some people clearly seem scared. Alaska's Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski made this extraordinary admission:

SENATOR LISA MURKOWSKI (R-Alaska): We are all afraid. I'm oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice, because retaliation is real.

MARK STRASSMANN: And it's not just Republicans getting an earful from their constituents.

WOMAN #5: I don't believe that you have fought large enough.

MARK STRASSMANN: Democratic Representative Laura Friedman got the same message from Californians.

(SHOUTING)

REPRESENTATIVE LAURA FRIEDMAN (D-California): OK, please – please sit down. We've got a lot of – we have a got a lot of questions I want to get through.

MARK STRASSMANN: Do more. Fight harder.

And yet there's this reality check. The president's approval rating stands at 47 percent in our recent CBS News poll, higher than at any point during his first term.

(End VT)

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: Welcome back to Face the Nation.

We turn now to Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lee Zeldin.

Administrator Zeldin, thank you so much for spending some of your morning with us.

I want to start with what your office called the most momentous day in the history of the EPA, and that is when the EPA announced 31 deregulatory actions just last month. That's a long list, but some of the things that stood out are, you're reconsidering regulations on power plants, on mercury and air toxic standards that target coal-fired power plants, and on wastewater regulations for the development of oil and gas.

The mission statement of the EPA is to protect human health and the environment. Can you assure the American public that all this deregulation is not going to have an adverse impact on people and the environment?

LEE ZELDIN (Environmental Protection Agency Administrator): Absolutely.

We have to both protect the environment and grow the economy. It's what the American people demanding – they're demanding of us. They want us to make sure that we are applying common sense. Over the course of the last couple years of the Biden administration, there were a lot of regulations that were brought over the finish line that were targeting entire industries.

And when the American public went to vote last November, they were talking about economic concerns, about struggling to make ends meet. That includes the cost of being able to heat their home, the choice of whether or not to be able to heat their home or fill up their fridge with groceries or afford prescription medication, the ability to get jobs.

What we've also heard are the costs of compliance, which amount into the trillions and what that does to the American economy as well. So going into this process, I don't prejudge outcomes. I'm not allowed to under the Administrative Procedures Act. We will have a process that includes public comment, and we would encourage the public to weigh in when they have that opportunity.

WEIJIA JIANG: Last month, you also announced that your agency is proposing changing the Waters of the U.S. And, of course, those are subject to regulation under the Clean Water Act and historically set standards that the EPA can address pollutants in our drinking water, including forever chemicals known as PFAS.

I bring that up because, during your time as a congressman, you advocated for legislation to address those dangerous PFAS in our water. Can you talk about the specifics of what waters could be now excluded from EPA regulation and why?

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: OK, so the first thing on the Waters of the U.S., the United States Supreme Court, in a decision called Sackett, put out prescriptive language saying what should be considered a Water of the U.S.

And what we're going to do is get the federal regulation in line with the Supreme Court decision that came out. Right now, across the country, the map of 50 states are operating under different definitions of what is a Water of the U.S. And there are farmers and ranchers and other landowners that – and they don't know whether or not water on their land is a Water of the U.S.

They have to go hire an attorney or someone else to tell them whether or not they have waters on their property. So, on that front, we want a simple definition for the entire country, so that people understand whether or not there's a Water of the U.S. on their property.

It's also important to some governments that weighed in as well.With regards to PFAS, very important issue, and we have to ensure that we are tackling it. I was a member of the PFAS Task Force when I was a member of Congress. I represented a district with a bunch of PFAS issues.

I have heard some feedback from members of Congress as it relates to PFAS. One example is that there are compliant states coming up where there are local water municipalities that are saying that they're going to have trouble meeting those particular deadlines, and they're looking for assistance. So I have heard that from members of Congress.

Now, that feedback from members of Congress, it's important. Something else they talk about is called passive receivers. So a local water municipality would have to pay for the PFAS cleanup, and then they pass it off to their consumer. And that is against the principle of polluter pays.

Instead of making Americans pay to clean up PFAS from their own drinking water, the responsible party should be paying. And, in many cases, the responsible party is the federal government.

WEIJIA JIANG: I want to turn to also the $20 billion worth of clean energy grants that you terminated, because, just last week, a federal judge ruled that the government must unfreeze that money because the administration did not offer sufficient evidence for waste, fraud and abuse.

Now, the ruling has been stayed while the appellate court looks into the case further. But can you talk about what this judge has says is a lack of evidence? Because there are several ongoing investigations to look for that waste, fraud and abuse, but they haven't concluded.

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: Yes.

WEIJIA JIANG: So why did you freeze the money before those investigations wrapped?

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: Well, and I'm glad you pointed out that the circuit court then stopped what the district court was saying.

So, self-dealing and conflicts of interest, unqualified recipients, lack of sufficient EPA oversight, these were all concerns that we had. First were - - had the alarm raised when a Biden EPA political appointee in December was on video saying that they were tossing gold bars off the Titanic, rushing to get billions of dollars out the door before Inauguration Day, and also said with an eye towards getting themselves jobs at recipient NGOs.

So, for example, as it relates to unqualified recipients, there was one recipient NGO that only received $100 in 2023 that got $2 billion in 2024. They also have in their grant agreement requirement to complete a training in 90 days called "How to Develop a Budget."

They were amending the account control agreements days before the inauguration, reducing EPA oversight. There's all sorts of questions that you can ask me as relates to where this money goes, because the $20 billion goes through eight pass-through entities. EPA isn't even a party to the account control agreements once it goes to the other entities, including many other pass-throughs.

If you ask me, what happens to that money, basic questions, $20 billion, I couldn't even provide answers to you. Now, I owe it to you, to the American public, to Congress to be able to tell them where that money goes. The idea that we're going to play along with tossing gold bars off the Titanic is something that I will not go along with.

I have a zero tolerance for any waste and abuse. It is my duty to ensure that I'm an exceptional steward of tax dollars. It is my responsibility to make – make sure we have more oversight of those funds.

WEIJIA JIANG: You bring up the gold bars because of that Project Veritas video where one former EPA adviser used that phrase, but you're not banking all of these cuts based on that one assertion, are you?

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: Yes, so it's interesting because, you know, you ask me. I brought up one – one exact – piece of example as it relates to that video.

I talk about unqualified recipients. I talk about an NGO that's brand new that received $100 and they get $2 billion. I talk about how their grant agreement tells them that they have 90 days to complete training called "How to Develop a Budget." I talk about how they're amending account control agreements just days before the election. And…

WEIJIA JIANG: And the judge says that's not sufficient evidence.

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: Oh, no, it's actually worse than that. In the judge's opinion, she doesn't even reference it. She ignores it.

Now, this is one of the problems with district court judges across this entire country. They were not elected president of the United States. It is important for us to be able to fulfill our constitutional duties, to follow our statutory obligations, and it is important to be a responsible steward of tax dollars.

But what shouldn't happen is ignore all of the evidence and then just say, there is no evidence. The 39-page opinion of the district court doesn't even reference any of that. And if we had more time and you said, hey, Lee, why don't you provide for me 15 more examples of evidence right now, and it's up to you. I don't know how much time you have. But I could just keep going of all the evidence and talk about self-dealing conflicts of interest, unqualified recipients and reduced oversight.

WEIJIA JIANG: Administrator, I will get that from your team, and I appreciate it. We will also be watching that case as it unfolds closely.

Thank you so much, and Happy Easter to you.

ADMINISTRATOR LEE ZELDIN: Thank you.

WEIJIA JIANG: We'll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: We go now to Massachusetts Democratic Governor Maura Healey, who joins us this morning from just outside of Boston.

Governor Healey, good morning to you.

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY (D-Massachusetts): Good morning, Weijia. Happy Easter to you and to all out there listening.

WEIJIA JIANG: Happy Easter to you as well.

I want to start with Harvard University, which is, of course, in your state and your alma mater. Last week, the Trump administration froze $2.2 billion in multiyear grants, $60 million in multiyear contracts to Harvard. And that's after the university rejected some of the administration's demands in order to keep that money flowing.

We saw the impact was swift, everything from research to staffing. And I wonder, is the university going to be able to withstand this funding freeze?

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY: Well, here's what's – here's what's happening on the ground as a result of those actions.

And, really, let's go back six weeks, when the first cuts were announced for NIH funding. Massachusetts, we've got a number of colleges and universities, research institutions. These are entities that actually have pioneered for decades cures to diseases, cancer, working right now on treatments for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and so much more.

In addition, they've often been the ones that have been leading the research when it comes to our defense industry. I could go through the various sectors. But, basically, what Donald Trump is doing by cutting off this funding, a few things are happening. Research labs are shutting down. Scientists and researchers are leaving the United States and going to other countries to do their work.

And, essentially, Donald Trump is giving away intellectual assets. The other thing that's happening real time right now, and it's incredibly sad, Weijia, I was in a hospital here just the other week, and this is a hospital, Boston Children's, where some of the sickest kids in the country go for care.

And there have been cuts to Boston Children's and other hospitals as a result of Donald Trump's actions, because these are part of a teaching hospital system. These cuts to universities have significant ripple effects, because they result in people being laid off, scientists being laid off, doctors being laid off.

Clinical trials for things like cancer treatments have been shut down. And this is really bad. It's bad for patients, it's bad for science, and it's really bad for American competitiveness. As governor, I want Massachusetts soaring. I want America soaring.

And what Donald Trump is doing is basically saying to China and other company – other countries, come to the United States, take – take our scientists, take our researchers.

And that – and that's what's happening. And it's really – it's terrible, on top of what he's done to the economy, and in just dismantling and wrecking the economy right now. I'm working hard every day to lower costs in my state, cut taxes, build more housing. And Donald Trump is just making life more expensive for all of us, making life harder for all of us.

And by coming after colleges and universities, Weijia, this is really going to have an impact on American competitiveness.

WEIJIA JIANG: Has…

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY: There's a reason this country has led the world, remember. And it's because we've invested in science and innovation for decades.

WEIJIA JIANG: Has Harvard asked your state for any support?

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY: There is no way a state can begin to make up for the cuts to federal funding, the cuts that Donald Trump has made to education, to health care, food for kids, heating assistance for seniors.

He just cut off FEMA disaster relief for our states the other day. And, as governor, I'm going to do everything I can to protect my residents, to protect our state, to protect our economy, but he makes it really difficult.

I will give you an example, Weijia. I filed and signed the largest housing bill in history. I want to build more housing, so that we can drive down costs. Donald Trump comes in with tariffs. Where do we get our lumber from? Canada. Where do we get other building materials from? Mexico. He's just made everything more expensive and more difficult.

And states will do the best they can. Governors like myself will do the best that we can, but there's no way that states can begin to make up for or course-correct these failings by the president of the United States and his administration when it comes to managing the economy.

WEIJIA JIANG: President Trump is also calling for Harvard to lose its tax- exempt status. And CBS News has confirmed that the IRS is considering at least rescinding it.

Are you aware of any evidence that the university has done anything to merit that?

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY: Absolutely not. It's outrageous.

But it's part of this continued playbook that Donald Trump has been using, which is to silence critics, right? First, he went after the law firms. Then he went after companies. Then he went after everyday Americans. Now he's going after colleges and universities, using any and all tactics to try to shut them down, to silence them.

That's what Donald Trump is about. There's no merit to any of this. And, of course, it's illegal. You can't do that as president of the United States. And that will get tested in court. Of course, Donald Trump right now is ignoring court orders, which is another issue. But there's absolutely no basis.

And, you know, what he is saying in doing that is, he's saying to every not-for-profit out there, not just colleges and universities, but think of all the organizations out there that are nonprofits in your community, right, supporting your little league, supporting seniors, any number of organizations, tens of thousands across the United States.

Donald Trump is saying, I can take that away from you right now, because I'm president, and I have that power.

He does not have that power. And there is no – not only is there no legal basis for what he is trying to do. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

WEIJIA JIANG: And, Governor, I want to ask you about a Tufts student, Rumeysa Ozturk, who was detained in your state by plainclothes officers late last month.

Right now, she's being held at a detention facility in Louisiana and has not been charged with any crimes. Late on Friday, a judge ordered ICE to move her to Vermont by May 1, so she can attend the district court proceedings over her detention.

Have you talked to her family or lawyers? And is there anything your state can do to support her right now?

GOVERNOR MAURA HEALEY: Well, this is a very troubling matter, because this woman is a Fulbright Scholar. She's getting her Ph.D. in child development. She has no criminal record or history. It appears she was one of many signers of an op-ed in a college newspaper.

The courts are already involved here, but it's very concerning. It's very concerning because there appears to be a total ignoring of due process, which is so foundational to our democracy and our rule of law in this country. And it also sends such a chill to students everywhere, including foreign students.

Massachusetts is a place where we benefit from foreign students coming from all over the world to do research, to study, and to start companies, in addition to winning Nobel Prizes. And this is really important, because when I – when I talk about Donald Trump's failed America first agenda, Weijia, this is what I'm talking about.

WEIJIA JIANG: Governor, thank you so much.

GOV. MAURA HEALEY: People are not going to come to the United States. They're going to go elsewhere.

WEIJIA JIANG: Thank you so much. I'm sorry we have to leave it there.

(CROSSTALK)

GOV. MAURA HEALEY: We need to do better.

WEIJIA JIANG: But I appreciate you so much this Sunday to share some of your time with us.

Thank you, Governor.

And we'll be right back in a moment.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: We turn now to the economy and the president of the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank, Austan Goolsbee. He joins us this morning from Chicago.

Austan, it's great to see you this morning.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE (President, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago): Yes, thank you for having me, Weijia.

WEIJIA JIANG: I want to talk about President Trump's tariffs plan, because, last week, Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell said tariff increases were higher than expected, and the economic effects will be too, including higher inflation and slower growth.

Do you agree with that assessment?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Well, look, I'm out here. The Chicago Fed district is kind of the heart of the Midwest, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan.

Folks, when I'm out talking to them, businesspeople and civic leaders have been saying for months that they had anxiety, that, if the tariffs were going to be as big as – as what – what they were saying they might be in February, March, that that would have a pretty significant impact on their operations.

The tariff announcement April 2 was definitely bigger than – than what – what they had been expressing. But there's just a lot of question marks. We don't know – 90 days from now, when – when they've revisited the tariffs, we just don't know how big they're going to be.

WEIJIA JIANG: Yes. And the administration says they have a lot of deals in the works, so we have to wait to see what those look like.

Trump's former top economic adviser Gary Cohn was on CNBC talking about what he is hearing from business executives about how they are impacting consumers right now.

I want to play that, some of that for you.

(Begin VT)

GARY COHN (Former Director, White House National Economic Council): What everyone's worried about is June, July and August. Are we just pulling all this demand forward from the summer? Because people that were going to buy stuff naturally through the next six months are saying, look, I'm going to save the tariff. I'm going to buy it now.

(End VT)

WEIJIA JIANG: So, he's talking about people trying to get ahead of the tariffs in case no deals are reached, in case those high numbers do get put into effect.

So, I wonder if you're hearing the same from your contacts in Chicago, that people are trying to rush out there to buy. And how does that impact your outlook for the economy?

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Yes, that kind of preemptive purchasing is probably even more pronounced on the business side, where, in anticipation, a lot of the imports that the tariffs would apply to, especially in the auto sector, are things that are parts, components, supplies that go into the manufacturing of other products.

So we heard a lot about preemptive building up of inventories that could last 60 days, 90 days, if there were going to be more uncertainty. That raises the possibility that that – that Gary Cohn raised there that activity might look artificially high in the initial and then, by the summer, might fall off, because people had bought it all and brought it forward.

I'm still hopeful and the people that I talked to out in the Midwest are still hopeful that, on the back end of this, it would be more like what Secretary Bessent said, that this could be a spark to lead to a new, he called it, golden age of global trade.

If we can get through this, it's important to remember the hard data coming into April was pretty good, the unemployment rate around steady full employment, inflation coming down. It's just a desire of people expressing they don't want to go back to kind of '21 and '22, at a time when inflation was – was really raging out of control.

WEIJIA JIANG: Got it.

I do want to go back to Jay Powell's remarks about the impact of tariffs, or potential impact, because they prompted President Trump to lash out by declaring: "Powell's termination cannot come fast enough."

Here's what the president said when reporters pressed if he has the power to remove Powell.

(Begin VT)

DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): I'm not happy with him. I let him know it. And so, if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast, believe me.

(End VT)

WEIJIA JIANG: Now, Austan, I know the Fed does not wade into politics, and I'm not going to ask you to do that, but I wonder if statements like this undermine or complicate your job as an apolitical institution.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Look, I'm glad you didn't ask me for legal advice, because I have an econ Ph.D. Don't ever ask legal advice from somebody like me.

I would say, monetary independence – before I was ever at the Fed, I was a research economist at the University of Chicago. There's virtual unanimity among economists that monetary independence from political interference, that the Fed or any Central Bank be able to do the job that it needs to do, is really important.

And they came to that not as a theory, but just by looking around the world at places where they don't have monetary independence. And the fact is, the inflation rate is higher, growth is slower, the job market is worse. So, we really – I strongly hope that we do not move ourselves into an environment where monetary independence is questioned, because that – that would undermine the credibility of the Fed.

WEIJIA JIANG: All right, Austan, thank you so much for your time. And Happy Easter to you.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Yes, happy Easter. Great to see you, Weijia.

WEIJIA JIANG: We'll be right back.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

WEIJIA JIANG: Vice President J.D. Vance, a practicing Catholic, met and exchanged gifts with Pope Francis at the Vatican this morning.

The 88-year-old pontiff, who has been critical of the Trump administration's immigration and deportation policies, has been recovering from pneumonia for the last few weeks.

That's it for us today. Thanks for watching, and happy Easter.

And, for Face the Nation, I'm Weijia Jiang.